Creole Language in School

[Varun]

Vote and discuss...

[Vishaan]

Why dont you put your vote and points forward first?

[Varun]

Okay, Vishaan.

Well, I don't know because Mauritius wants to be like Singapore, which has already ditched their native languages to focus only in the English language to help them attain further economic success. On the other hand, Creole language is my mother tongue and it will hurt me to see it disappear.

[Vishaan]

I voted 'of course it is'. I think it better to keep our mother tongue. Children will understand better in creole than in english. I think that those children who are weak in studies have problem with english language.
As well it can help certain people to talk better creole.
E.g
We usually hear this: Monn ress laba depi 5 hr tanto.
When it should have been this: Monn ress laba ziska 5 hr tanto.

[Varun]

I do agree that certain people communicate incorrectly in Creole and that really irritates me. What further frustrates me is when some of my Mauritian instant messaging contacts tell me they don't understand it when I write in Creole.

However, looking at it globally, different languages often create communication barriers.

[Jeet]

first i want to know whether it is about being taught using creole or will creole itself be taught as a subject?

[Kavi]

Good Question Jeet.

The answer is yes. As you know, a Creole dictionary is now available on the market (worldwide) and to promote this release, government accepted to teach "Creole" as a subject (rather a language). (Not that this is not the MAIN and only criterium considered to implement this language)

However, I'm against this decision of our educational system (till now).I want to know why implementing such a system? In what way would it benefit Mauritians, whose mother tong is already creole? Would people communicate in 'Creole' when postulating for a job in an international firm settled in Mauritius or even abroad? Won't it affect the teaching of other basic languages like English and French?

[Vishaan]

Kavi, suppose tomorow you become a doctor. Are you going to talk to your patients in english or french?
Or you become an engineer, how you going talk to your workers? In french or english?
I am not saying that English or French dont help. Of course they help loads in international business ect.
But if you are going to become someone who has to deal with mauritians everyday, how you are going to talk? I guess creole will be best for better understanding so it wont be appropriate if you dont speak proper creole.

[Varun]

[Vishaan]

[Jeet]

xDeiii, i agree with kavi, creole taught as a subject will make a heavy impact on subjects like english and french, am pretty much sure that while writing french, some words used in creole will make their appearence on the paper!!! and some would try translating creole into english, and i guess you guys know how it's like when this type of translation occurs!!

[Prithvi]

Well, i think it's a complete waste of time this new initiative brought upon. Did we guys require a class of Kreole to know this language?
Has anyone of us here gone to that type of class to know Kreole?

I think the overall answer will be a big "NO"!
You guys mentioned previously that its our mother tongue! So its obvious that it will come automatically!

This Kreole class should be kept for foreigners instead!

[Vishaan]

Of course, you are right from your point of view Prithvi but maybe an oral creole class should be there for a proper way of talking.

Wasting time?
Its nothing great. Only add 1 hour to the school hours and its done. But surely mauritians wont approve because we are all very lazy.

[Kavi]

Vishaan, I'm Mauritian. I think that IT'S NOT NECESSARY for me to learn "Creole" as a language so as to communicate in the near future. I won't forget "Kreole" while learning English or French. Nevertheless, i think its helpful for foreign pupils attending Mauritian state schools.

[Vishaan]

I voted 'of course it is'. I think it better to keep our mother tongue. Children will understand better in creole than in english. I think that those children who are weak in studies have problem with english language.
As well it can help certain people to talk better creole.
E.g
We usually hear this: Monn ress laba depi 5 hr tanto.
When it should have been this: Monn ress laba ziska 5 hr tanto.

I do agree that certain people communicate incorrectly in Creole and that really irritates me. What further frustrates me is when some of my Mauritian instant messaging contacts tell me they don't understand it when I write in Creole.

However, looking at it globally, different languages often create communication barriers.

Vishaan, I'm Mauritian. I think that IT'S NOT NECESSARY for me to learn "Creole" as a language so as to communicate in the near future. I won't forget "Kreole" while learning English or French. Nevertheless, i think its helpful for foreign pupils attending Mauritian state schools.

Think you didnt go through these post above about mine and that of Varun.
Kavi, which is the right way to write name of the language we are discussing?
I am puzzled because you wrote it two ways..

[Varun]

It seems like Kavi has unknowingly validated Vishaan's arguments, which I think are good enough.

That said, I have already invented my own way of writing in Creole since some time now and I'm not too sure they match the official one.

[Kavi]

-.-'

Okay, "Creole".. fine? But thats out of our topic.

I've not validated his post since I nowhere wrote in Creole except this silly typing mistake.

[shine076]

The danger of putting creole language as a school subject is that many students who are already having problems with English and French languages might tend to concentrate less on those languages. This would be the complete failure of our educational system.

[Vishaan]

Thats also true Miss Shine076.
But I wonder if 'tradcution' classes will be a good idea to improve these languages.
e.g english to creole or vice versa.

[Varun]

-.-'

Okay, "Creole".. fine? But thats out of our topic.

I've not validated his post since I nowhere wrote in Creole except this silly typing mistake.

Exactly! That's where you have validated Vishaan's point, Kavi and you have indirectly indicated that we still have to learn our own language.

The danger of putting creole language as a school subject is that many students who are already having problems with English and French languages might tend to concentrate less on those languages. This would be the complete failure of our educational system.

Apart from the French and English languages, some schools even teach Spanish, German and Chinese along side. So, I can't really see how the implementation of the Creole language would contribute to a failure of our educational system. Moreover, additional subjects have been recently added in the system and they have caused more good than harm. Common examples are Computer (ICT) and Science.

Thats also true Miss Shine076.
But I wonder if 'tradcution' classes will be a good idea to improve these languages.
e.g english to creole or vice versa.

One plus point to you!

[Jeet]

Thats also true Miss Shine076.
But I wonder if 'tradcution' classes will be a good idea to improve these languages.
e.g english to creole or vice versa.

i guess, you meant 'traduction' vishaan!!

well, i'd agree with yoush, because we have to take into consideration that there are some kids out there who are not like us and needs more explanation on certain things to understand, so if creole is implemented, am quite sure that mistakes will occur while trying to write properly for english and french!!

1 e.g that some students do, while trying to translate creole into french/english:
wrong sentence: "Les parents bagarre entre eux"
when right sentence should have been: "Les parents se bagarrent".
was trying to look for a proper example, but didn't get one, sorry for that!!

[Vishaan]

wai sorry.

Jeet you are taking tutions. Do the teachers explain in english or french?
Forget about tuitions, lets take example of school only. Does your maths teacher explain in english? I have been same school with you and no one explains it in eglish.

Let me ask Yoush a question. Yoush do you continously explain your students in creole?
Be honest.

[Nusha]

One thing which is very common nowadays is that when a child joins the pre-primary school, s/he uses mostly French language to communicate. I think that Creole language should also be considered at the pre-primary level. It will be a bit difficult to teach little children things like translation. To enhance Creole language amongst them, things like small dramas can be organised.

[Kavi]

Good idea Nusha.

As I've mentioned earlier, "Creole" as a language is a waste of resources.
Firstly, ALL Mauritian, be it a child or an adult, knows how to speak "Creole". Even though some spelling or typing mistake that might later be self-resolved, I don't think its that crucial to introduce this language in our school premises.
Secondly, a Mauritian student might opt for "Creole", a language to whom he is already familiar (the word 'familiar' is still weak) instead of opting for one who might (surely) be beneficial to him much more that simple "creole". Surely, he has choosen the "easy path".
Thirdly, pupils will have the tendency to literally translate French to Creole and vice-versa on paper. Just imagine you being the teacher correcting these questions... No easy task for sure.

My arguments might not be congruent some.. XD
Anyways, those are my opinions..

[Jeet]

still vishaan translation would have been a better word than traduction
xD
I partially agree with you kavi

wi vishaan, mais sa secondaire sa, nu compren difference entre french and english la, creole is used for better understanding.

As it is, i guess, secondary school subjects can be taught using creole, as we are much more mature than students in primary school!! c'est sa bann primaire zelev la ki pu fer confusion plus!!

[Varun]

Jeet, the next time you decide to reply to several persons in a single post, do everybody a favour and go through the following topic before: Quote & Multi-Quote

[Shanu]

I think implementing Creole language as a subject is not only a waste of resource but also a waste of time for Mauritians. I do not discard the fact that some Mauritians still do not know how to talk proper Creole but i also do not neglect the thought that its no a big deal. I tell you why. We go decennies back to where our ancestors started using this language as a former language in Mauritius. Creole language originated mainly from French and English. With time, Creole gradually evoluated and there were some proper ways of talking this language. But the question is why some people put the emphasis of Creole being taught as a subject? Is it only because some Mauritians do not know how to speak proper Creole? Oh come on... We also teach English and French as a subject, right? But still there is a majority of people who cannot talk these two languages properly. Now this brings me back to what Vishaan said earlier.

Kavi, suppose tomorow you become a doctor. Are you going to talk to your patients in english or french?
Or you become an engineer, how you going talk to your workers? In french or english?
I am not saying that English or French dont help. Of course they help loads in international business ect.
But if you are going to become someone who has to deal with mauritians everyday, how you are going to talk? I guess creole will be best for better understanding so it wont be appropriate if you dont speak proper creole.

If i was supposed to be a doctor or an engineer, i would have used the language that my patients or my workers feel at ease with. Secondly, i come across Mauritians everyday and frankly i can tell you there are scarcely few occasions where i find it hard to understand their Creole.
To my point of view, i think that Creole language should be implemented as a subject for foreigners studying in Mauritius rather than the citizens of Mauritius itself.

[Jeet]

AGREED Shanu

[Sandhia]

boff
its very silly to introduce the kreol morissien as a subject, pove ban zenfant! si omoin dan 1 le monde 1 lot plass ti koz kreol morissien! kot sa pou amen nou pay??

Vote and discuss...

hahaha ala zefan pou fail dan kreol, francais, may li li pou aret conn coz creol mem at the end :PP
akoz dan lakaz li pou koz 1 kaliter kreol, ek lekol 1 lot kaliter creol

[Prithvi]

I think creol classes should only be provided to the eccentric ones..
what say?

[Varun]

Most of you have labelled this idea as a waste of resources. From what I know, learning is progress. English people learn English as a language in schools, French people learn French as a language in schools, German people learn German as a language in schools while Indian people learn Hindi, Urdu, Telegu and I don't know what more in schools. So, how is it that it's not a waste of resources in those countries?

There are lots of islands in the Indian Ocean including Mauritius, which use Creole as their main language. In my opinion, this alone is an important criteria which makes learning Creole language a must.

However, I'm not sure we have come to a point where Creole language has been standardized and that's what tells me that may be we are not ready yet.

[Prithvi]

By the way, what's the history behind creole language?
How was it formed?

[dharam gokhool]

Kreol (Creole) is a national communication medium spoken n understood by nearly 90% of the population.It has evolved naturally and has a unique flavour when spoken

It scuts across all communities and is unifying factor

,,now if we want to trap it into a formal orthography and impose it upon our children,the risk is that it will lose it natural flavour and if the association with an ethnic group is pursued,it will interfere with its natural development and consolidation.

Why not use it as a support language in Primary and Secondary School and continue with its formal devlopment,with sccipt/orthography at University Level

I do not share and support the the present strategy..it has too musch political and ethnic undertones..and will do more harm thsn good to a national asset

Kreol..nu tout kose kreole...qui fer bizin donne li ene connotation ethnic et sectaire..Short-sighted startegy

[Sneha]

Mo pa trouv li necesser introduir langaz creole dan lekol vu ke c pa enn langaz pou amprann sirtu a moris. Dan nimport ki coin lari nou kapav tann dimounn koz creole. Osi, kouma eski li pou servi nou kom sujet dan l'avenir?

Mo donn lesson hindi dan wiken a bann zanfan primer & seconder. Kan mo p fer synonymes & antonymes, souvan mo bisin traduir hindi an francais ou anglais pou mo assur moi ki zelev ine compran. Fer kouma dir monn dir tel mot so signification c'est 'retourner', zot ekrir 'returner' dan zot cahier et kan mo chek cahier, mo bisin fer classe francais ansam ek hindi sen cout la. Enn lot examp, 'I nid u' au lieu de 'I need you'. Zis pou dir zot ki kaliter bann zelev zot nivo francais ou anglais p degrader parski ena enn terib confusion dan zot latet vu ke creole ena enn ressemblans avek francais (sirtu) & anglais.

Mo donn zot mo lexamp mem ain, kan mo ti tipti mo ti p koz zis francais. Mo pa ti konn koz creole. Monn koumans koz creole kan mo dadi ine vinn abit kot moi pou kelke tan parski li ti p koz zis creole ek bhojpuri avek moi kan mo tiena 9 ou 10 ans. Donc, mo pann bisin aprann la lang. Li vini otomatik parski dan l'anvironman kot nou viv 2/3 koz creole dan moris.

Ceki mo kontan c'est ki mem si introduir lang creole dan lekol, li pa pou enn lang elementer. Donc zanfan la puena enn choix: a prendre ou pa

[Vishaan]

(Mo p ziss dir seki mwa mo ressenti)
Kan ban dimunn prefere lezot pays ki zot pays de naissance, mo gagne ner. Si kumsa zot detester zot pays, b kiter aller. Pa fer enplis ici.

Li parey pu languaz creole. Si ou pa kontan languaz creole, ek prefere englai ou francai, b ale dan ban pays kot banla servi sa ban languaz la. Mo pitier sa ban dimunn ki pa kontan donn limportance zot languaz natale ou zot pays naissance.

[sanjeevkfaugoo]

Wasting time?
Its nothing great. Only add 1 hour to the school hours and its done. But surely mauritians wont approve because we are all very lazy.

add one more hour my friend?

i ask you a simple question. (to all posters on this forum.) Have you followed all your classes from start to finish, everyday of the year? (absences due to illness are ignored.) have you been present physically and mentally?

as a teacher, i would like to say this would have negative effects. pupils are already fed up by 1530. now to add one hour...

,,now if we want to trap it into a formal orthography and impose it upon our children,the risk is that it will lose it natural flavour and if the association with an ethnic group is pursued,it will interfere with its natural development and consolidation.

use it as a support language in Primary and Secondary School

Kreol..nu tout kose kreole...qui fer bizin donne li ene connotation ethnic et sectaire..Short-sighted startegy

tou ine bien dir ek pena narien pu ajouter. kreole: ene zoli langaz pu cozer. laisse li ene langaz cozer. pa gatt li r lortografi

pareil pou bhojpui. pa blier p ajoute sa langaz la oci.

[Vishaan]

I got your point SanjeevKFaugoo, you are right. But whats is the use to learn french? Where do we use this language? Newspapers? They dont write proper french. Am sure being a teacher you must have noticed. And some uneducated people cant even read newspapers due to language problem. Why not remove french and teach creole? At least these uneducated people can read some newspaper if written in creole.
Actually its not teaching but only refining the language.

[Sneha]

But whats is the use to learn french? Where do we use this language? Newspapers? They dont write proper french. Am sure being a teacher you must have noticed. And some uneducated people cant even read newspapers due to language problem. Why not remove french and teach creole?

Let us assume that we no longer teach French in schools and you have a child who wants to travel to France or any other country where the dialect is French. Will your child be able to feel himself/herself at ease when he/she can't even grasp what people around him/her are speaking?

Now, if I follow the idea of removing french and replace it with Creole, then I think it is absurd because our country is visited mainly by French and British tourists communicating mostly in French and English. If we, Mauritians and the foreigners, who don't understand Mauritian Creole, can't exchange a few words properly, the situation becomes the same as I explained earlier for the case of a child who goes in France and doesn't feel comfortable due to language problem.

And some uneducated people cant even read newspapers due to language problem. Why not remove french and teach creole? At least these uneducated people can read some newspaper if written in creole.
Actually its not teaching but only refining the language.

First of all, an uneducated being cannot read or write, Vishaan.

Secondly, around the world there are 70 to 110 million people speaking French as a native language and as second language speakers, there are 190 million according to researchers. In Mauritius, 72.7% speak French. Because of a minority who can't read/understand French, you decide that it is better to teach Creole than French? What about the majority then?

Mauritian Creole was developed in the 18th century when our ancestors, the slaves, used a pidgin language to converse amongst themselves and with their French masters. Over the years, it evolved into a French-based language due to a mixture of French pronunciation and vocabulary. When the foundation itself is French, what's the use of implementing creole as a subject in school when French is already being taught?

[Varun]

Well, this brings me to the following question now:

Is Creole a dialect or a language?

[Shanu]

Vishaan, lol...
Can you please elaborate about your point concerning uneducated? No doubt, you mean that uneducated people can't read english or french newspapers. This also implies that those "uneducated" people can't even understand the letters a, b, c, d like most of us have understood here. But how can they read kreol newspaper when they hardly know the letters a, b, c, d? Now come on, you won't tell me that we should keep a class for them to learn a, b, c, d to know written kreol language? Right?

[Prithvi]

Well, this brings me to the following question now:

Is Creole a dialect or a language?

If that's your question, then what's bhopuri? A dialect or a language?
Through this answer, I'm sure you must have definitely got the answer to your question.

Now, regarding Vishaan's and Shanu's post, what I've understood from your point of view, the Creole language will be to teach the "uneducated" about how to write the Creole terminologies. Well, I think this should have been in the Oral format, for I think this class should be held for the only purpose to correct the bad pronunciation of some creole terms from certain people. I can still recall the time when I used to say: "man" instead of "ban" when I was a small kiddoo.

Well, I'm not criticising your opinions above, I just sharing mine. From your point of view you are right!

[Vishaan]

But whats is the use to learn french? Where do we use this language? Newspapers? They dont write proper french. Am sure being a teacher you must have noticed. And some uneducated people cant even read newspapers due to language problem. Why not remove french and teach creole?

Let us assume that we no longer teach French in schools and you have a child who wants to travel to France or any other country where the dialect is French. Will your child be able to feel himself/herself at ease when he/she can't even grasp what people around him/her are speaking?

Now, if I follow the idea of removing french and replace it with Creole, then I think it is absurd because our country is visited mainly by French and British tourists communicating mostly in French and English. If we, Mauritians and the foreigners, who don't understand Mauritian Creole, can't exchange a few words properly, the situation becomes the same as I explained earlier for the case of a child who goes in France and doesn't feel comfortable due to language problem.

And some uneducated people cant even read newspapers due to language problem. Why not remove french and teach creole? At least these uneducated people can read some newspaper if written in creole.
Actually its not teaching but only refining the language.

First of all, an uneducated being cannot read or write, Vishaan.

Secondly, around the world there are 70 to 110 million people speaking French as a native language and as second language speakers, there are 190 million according to researchers. In Mauritius, 72.7% speak French. Because of a minority who can't read/understand French, you decide that it is better to teach Creole than French? What about the majority then?

Mauritian Creole was developed in the 18th century when our ancestors, the slaves, used a pidgin language to converse amongst themselves and with their French masters. Over the years, it evolved into a French-based language due to a mixture of French pronunciation and vocabulary. When the foundation itself is French, what's the use of implementing creole as a subject in school when French is already being taught?

I agree with what you said.
Let me take one example.
Shanu has been to China for his studies. But he never learnt chinese language at school but how come is he managing?
Near my house there is a factory where there are workers from India Sri Lanka and ect..I was surprised when I heard them speaking creole(though it wasnt proper creole and pronounciation not that good). But still they are adapting to the environment.
Anyway our topic isnt this.
Removing french isnt the only solution. Surely there can be alternate days for creole and other subjects.

When am referring to uneducated people, I dont find that there is any child staying at home and not attending pre-primary school. 'a, b, c, d' these are taught at pre-primary level.
I will say it again that creole can be taught for better communication between people of same country.
Sneha you must have once been ill and visited a doctor. When explaining what you are feeling to the doctor, did you speak french or english?

Well, this brings me to the following question now:

Is Creole a dialect or a language?

It cannot be differentiated from each other. Language and dialect are same.

Vishaan, lol...
Can you please elaborate about your point concerning uneducated? No doubt, you mean that uneducated people can't read english or french newspapers. This also implies that those "uneducated" people can't even understand the letters a, b, c, d like most of us have understood here. But how can they read kreol newspaper when they hardly know the letters a, b, c, d? Now come on, you won't tell me that we should keep a class for them to learn a, b, c, d to know written kreol language? Right?

I answered your question above along with that of Sneha.

Well, this brings me to the following question now:

Is Creole a dialect or a language?

If that's your question, then what's bhopuri? A dialect or a language?
Through this answer, I'm sure you must have definitely got the answer to your question.

Now, regarding Vishaan's and Shanu's post, what I've understood from your point of view, the Creole language will be to teach the "uneducated" about how to write the Creole terminologies. Well, I think this should have been in the Oral format, for I think this class should be held for the only purpose to correct the bad pronunciation of some creole terms from certain people. I can still recall the time when I used to say: "man" instead of "ban" when I was a small kiddoo.

Well, I'm not criticising your opinions above, I just sharing mine. From your point of view you are right!

Exactly Prithvi. There is still some people who pronounce 'man' instead of 'ban'. I have several more examples and people studying MBBS speaking such creole, I find it really awkward.

[Nusha]

I have just come to know that there is a Chinese boy who paid someone to make him learn Creole in China. Today that guy is a guide for Mauritians in China. If others are giving importance to our mother tongue, why shouldn't we...

[Vishaan]

Appreciated Nusha.

[sanjeevkfaugoo]

only one point to make:

kreole: ene zoli langaz pu cozer. laisse li ene langaz cozer.

[Prithvi]

only one point to make:

kreole: ene zoli langaz pu cozer. laisse li ene langaz cozer.

God knows when this shall hit the mind of the Ministry of Education!

[Varun]

as a teacher, i would like to say this would have negative effects. pupils are already fed up by 1530. now to add one hour...

In my opinion, the pupils are fed up and surely tired also because these days private tuition has become a mandatory fashion. Private tuition is certainly another debate but I sincerely think it is one of the thorns making the implementation of the Creole language difficult in school.

I did some research and came across the following bit of information:

Because of the generally low status of the Creole peoples in the eyes of prior European colonial powers, creole languages have generally been regarded as "degenerate" languages, or at best as rudimentary "dialects" of the politically dominant parent languages. Because of this prejudice, the word "creole" was generally used by linguists in opposition to "language", rather than as a qualifier for it. This prejudice was compounded by the inherent instability of the colonial system, leading to the disappearance of creole languages, mainly due to dispersion or assimilation of their speech communities.

Another factor that may have contributed to the relative neglect of creole languages in linguistics is that they do not fit the 19^th century neogrammarian "tree model" for the evolution of languages, and its postulated regularity of sound changes (such as the earliest advocates of the wave model, Johannes Schmidt and Hugo Schuchardt, the forerunners of modern sociolinguistics). This controversy of the late 19^th century profoundly shaped modern approaches to the comparative method in historical linguistics and in creolistics.

Because of social, political, and academic changes brought on by decolonization in the second half of the 20^th century, creole languages have experienced revivals in the past few decades. They are increasingly being used in print and film, and in many cases, their community prestige has improved dramatically. In fact, some have been standardized, and are used in local schools and universities around the world. At the same time, linguists have began to come to the realization that creole languages are in no way inferior to other languages. They now use the term "creole" or "creole language" for any language suspected to have undergone creolization, terms that now imply no geographic restrictions nor ethnic prejudices.

Read more here.

The above article clearly shows that there are other countries which have already implemented what our government is trying to do and I still think Mauritians need to learn the Creole language at school but first, it needs to be further developed and standardized at university level. As I have already said before, I'm not too sure it is the right time to do it now.

[sanjeevkfaugoo]

The article is referring to creole in general. not mauritian creole.

A creole language, or simply a creole, is a stable, natural language developed from the mixing of parent languages; creoles differ from pidgins (which are believed by scholars to be necessary precedents of creoles) in that they have been nativized by children as their primary language, making them have features of natural languages that are normally missing from pidgins.

difference is: Creole is wat was been used by the 'slaves' to communicate with the 'master'.

Mauritian Creole is our (People of Mauritius) Mother tongue, our L1 as linguists say. (Mother tongue = language we hear, understand, learn and use first.) our second language is English, french or other asian languages.

[Varun]

Mauritian Creole is our (People of Mauritius) Mother tongue, our L1 as linguists say. (Mother tongue = language we hear, understand, learn and use first.) our second language is English, french or other asian languages.

You said we learn Creole and we all know that things are better learnt in school. I am happy that you have at least (indirectly) acknowledged it.

[sanjeevkfaugoo]

si to p dire