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The God Delusion

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The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 10:30

When I was a little kid mom used to tell me: "It's already 18:00, go and do your prayer. You need to pray to get peace and prosperity in your life..."

However, while picking up my days I started having a different approach at this thing which is called religion. What is the meaning of religion? Does God exist? 24 years of age right now and I've been an atheist for more than half of my life. The God Delusion is a book by British biologist Richard Dawkins, holder of the Charles Simonyi Chair for the Public Understanding of Science at the University of Oxford.

In his book, Dawkins contends that a supernatural creator almost certainly does not exist and that belief in God qualifies as a delusion, which he defines as a persistent false belief held in the face of strong contradictory evidence. He is sympathetic to Robert Pirsig's observation that when one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity and when many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion.

I should admit that I have not got the opportunity to go through his book but I've been really inspired by his beliefs and ideas when I watched him on BBC World some days ago. I come from a religious family as are an estimated 86% of the world's population. So, in this regard I belong to the minority group referred as non-religious. Still, I am firm on my beliefs and I would like to hear about your perceptions and beliefs in God and religion.


Last edited by Varun on Mon 4 Jan 2010 - 19:45; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : Update)

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 13:21

benn.......
scratch
moi mo 50:50 concernant existence of god la...

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Chitra on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 13:24

I fully believe in God as I saw a miracle happening to me some time back. God exists and I love him.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Smita on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 13:26

I do agree that there's no such proof that God really exists n all.They are all beliefs.every1 has its own view on God and religion.Personally i do belive in god, religion and all n even as varun's mom used to tell him, my mom also did the same thg n even 2day i find myself doing my prayers at 6pm.lol.However,I do find lots of persons of the new generation to be atheist although they come from family backgrounds who firmly believe in God and religion.Sometimes this makes me think, is it becoz of the evolving world, or our knowledge which makes us form our own opinions that is really the cause for such a wide range of perceptions?Hmm, finally i'll like to end by saying its all abt one's belief and just as we r all not the same likewise we share different opinions on religion and god.However, the best thing is to really respect each other's point of view.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 13:55

Smita, I guess you responded pretty well by saying that everyone has their beliefs and people of the new generation prefer to be atheist because of the evolving world but what I wanted to know is why do you believe in God? What makes you believe in God? What do you get when you do prayers?

Also, you come from a Hindu family but why did you choose to follow Hinduism? Hasn't any other form of religion attracted you?

Moving on to Chitra's statement... Can you tell us more about your miracle and what makes you think God exists and where is God? What's the link between your miracle and God? Had the miracle not happened, would you hate God?

Jyotsna, how can you be 50/50? Do you believe in God and laugh at him/her at the same time? Please, tell us more about your opinion.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 15:48

no comments..........

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 15:59

Come on, we have a debate here. A forum is not meant to share jokes or discuss on hair styles only. We are living in the 21st century and these topics should not be taboo.

You call yourself the young and dynamic generation of today but does this mean that you can only argue with your parents about your lifestyles or laugh at others when they goof up?

Please, do participate.


Last edited by on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 0:34; edited 1 time in total

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 17:13

Let me give my version.

I do believe in God, but I dont pray in front of his fotos.
Why do we pray statues? they are lifeless? Y?
Who saw God? How can people say that God is like this he is like that? There is only one and noone saw him. We can pray in our heart. God has neither been blind nor deaf. And whatever Pundits talk, for me its all shit, coz have they been with God that time? How can they write Ramayan of Bhagwad Gita?
Who said that we should fast so that God bless us with happines?
And for me fasting is when you dont eat at all! Not that you just only eat vegetables. This is false.

Ther is one thing which I dont accept. We all say that Muslims make lots of noise. I agree because we need to pray in our heart silently and God will know it. But what is it when we hindus are praying at nyt till late in temple for e.g on shivratree? Isnt that noise pollution? Why such racism?
By praying this way, for me its only showing off and selling your religion! They all only pretend. One more e.g, younsters like me do go to temple to watch girls! Is this praying? (Well I dnt go to temples.)

As we usually watch films on t.v. When a film starts it has to finish. Exactly When life started existing on Earth, it has to end also. So I do believe that one day the world will end also known as 'La Fin Du Monde.' This will happen when the sun will explode. I am a science student and I believe more in science than spiritual shits.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Prithvi on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 17:14

I fully agree with varun. There is no god, no ghost, no evil spirit and no soul roaming at 00.00!! That is only called delusion and nothing else which have been put in our mind when we were little kids! This is simply a delusion!!

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 18:34

Who said there is no soul?
I dont accept this. Souls are harmless, they cant be feel, heard, touched or anything. they are unconcious.

Of course there is no such thing as ghost and evil spirit.


But souls only changed bodies. They never die.

A famous law: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

As such the soul cannot take birth or die. It only change body when a body is useless. And when it doesnot have any body, it just roams around.

Who knows Prithvi you were a girl on your previous birth?

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 18:41

ya..
its true ki souls exist.....

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Prithvi on Sun 6 Jan 2008 - 19:02

Ok ok i accept that soul exist!!

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 0:31

Vishaan, you're being irrelevant. I am not discussing about the different ways of doing a prayer. My main question is why are we religious and why do we idolize God?

Now, there's one thing which I found very funny and I need to counter that. You stated that energy can neither be created nor destroyed. That's a physics law and it's very true but your idea of soul roaming is absurd. Let me explain...

Energy can neither be created nor destroyed. Humans are sources of energy and we get them from our surroundings in the form of air, food, water and so on. Now, when we are dead we are simply dead. When the human body is dead all the remaining energy will be transferred to the bacteria doing the decomposition process. How do you back your idea of soul roaming? I still can't figure out.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 9:49

Sorry I just got confused.
Anyway we can also discuss about that. Embarassed
Sorry again.

Now I come back to you Varun:

When we are dead, Its only the body which is dead and not your soul.
Just as the same way you said it that energy is not destroyed and is tranferred to microorganisms, the same way the soul doesnot die, it get transferred to another body, but when it doesnot have a body yet, it roams around.


Cool I am nonreligious because for me evrybody is same.

But Varun see and observe well, you will see that God do exixts! Remember your days well and try to collect each and every word you say at this minute and later on.

Well Guys I want you to give me your opinion about what i wrote first even though I got confused. Smile

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 11:21

You're now claiming that God exists but still you're not religious because everybody is the same for you? Vishaan, you're being much more confused.

My question is not being answered at all. Should I repeat it? No, better, you scroll up and read everything once again. Oh forget it, let me repeat it to ease the process taking place in your grey matter...

  • Where is God? Who is God? What is God's role?
  • Where is the soul? Of what is made up the soul? What is the soul's role?

Give me facts, proofs and good relevance but you know what, guys? I get the strong feeling that this debate is being put under taboo. Almost all of the users registered in this forum so far are in my Messenger contacts list. I've been asking them to contribute in this debate but they have rather opted to give me their perceptions on Messenger itself. When asked why not here, the reasons being forwarded are all the same: "I respect everybody's views and I do not want to discuss about this delicate matter there. I am religious or I am not religious, what is the difference?"

Now, let me give the reason why I was so eager to discuss about this matter....

Richard Dawkins wrote:
The God Delusion

Chapter Eight: What's wrong with religion? Why be so hostile?

In July 2005, London was the victim of a concerted suicide bomb attack: three bombs in the subway and one in a bus. Not as bad as the 2001 attack on the World Trade Center, and certainly not as unexpected (indeed, London had been braced for just such an event ever since Blair volunteered us as unwilling side-kicks in Bush's invasion of Iraq), nevertheless the London explosions horrified Britain. The newspapers were filled with agonized appraisals of what drove four young men to blow themselves up and take a lot of innocent people with them. The murderers were British citizens, cricket-loving, well-mannered, just the sort of young men whose company one might have enjoyed.

Why did these cricket-loving young men do it? Unlike their Palestinian counterparts, or their kamikaze counterparts in Japan, or their Tamil Tiger counterparts in Sri Lanka, these human bombs had no expectation that their bereaved families would be lionized, looked after or supported on martyrs' pensions. On the contrary, their relatives in some cases had to go into hiding. One of the men wantonly widowed his pregnant wife and orphaned his toddler. The action of these four young men has been nothing short of a disaster not just for themselves and their victims, but for their families and for the whole Muslim community in Britain, which now faces a backlash. Only religious faith is a strong enough force to motivate such utter madness in otherwise sane and decent people. Once again, Sam Harris put the point with percipient bluntness, taking the example of the Al-Qaida leader Osama bin Laden (who had nothing to do with the London bombings, by the way). Why would anyone want to destroy the World Trade Center and everybody in it? To call bin Laden 'evil' is to evade our responsibility to give a proper answer to such an important question.

The answer to this question is obvious - if only because it has been patiently articulated ad nauseam by bin Laden himself. The answer is that men like bin Laden actually believe what they say they believe. They believe in the literal truth of the Koran. Why did nineteen well-educated middle-class men trade their lives in this world for the privilege of killing thousands of our neighbors? Because they believed that they would go straight to paradise for doing so. It is rare to find the behavior of humans so fully and satisfactorily explained. Why have we been so reluctant to accept this explanation?"

The respected journalist Muriel Gray, writing in the (Glasgow) Herald on 24 July 2005, made a similar point, in this case with reference to the London bombings.

Everyone is being blamed, from the obvious villainous duo of George W. Bush and Tony Blair, to the inaction of Muslim 'communities'. But it has never been clearer that there is only one place to lay the blame and it has ever been thus. The cause of all this misery, mayhem, violence, terror and ignorance is of course religion itself, and if it seems ludicrous to have to state such an obvious reality, the fact is that the government and the media are doing a pretty good job of pretending that it isn't so.

Our Western politicians avoid mentioning the R word (religion), and instead characterize their battle as a war against 'terror', as though terror were a kind of spirit or force, with a will and a mind of its own. Or they characterize terrorists as motivated by pure 'evil'. But they are not motivated by evil. However misguided we may think them, they are motivated, like the Christian murderers of abortion doctors, by what they perceive to be righteousness, faithfully pursuing what their religion tells them. They are not psychotic; they are religious idealists who, by their own lights, are rational. They perceive their acts to be good, not because of some warped personal idiosyncrasy, and not because they have been possessed by Satan, but because they have been brought up, from the cradle, to have total and unquestioning faith.


Last edited by Varun on Wed 10 Dec 2008 - 11:03; edited 5 times in total

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 13:38

ceki envi krwar li krwar... ceki panvi kwar pa krwar... enfin mwa personally mo pa believe in god... surtou ki dan la religion hindu nu sipozer believe in 'naw grwa' (9 planets)... mai aster in decouvert n 10eme planet... eski pou ena n revision dan religion hindu? enfin pa kone... lol

kme Dawkins n bilogist... li pu believe only in facts and pa ceki dimun kwar ou dire... ban dimun kuma Usama bin Laden c ban mizilman extremist... zot fer plis ki bizen... ek wi kifer zot fer sa?

Ek wi n fwa ki dimun in mort...line fini sa...pna spirit n ferfut...kuma avan n dimun nee pna nanyer avan b kan li mort si pna nanyer apre... tou teign.. lolz

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 14:38

Ok, I think that you are getting confused with my way of saying it.

Where is God? Nobody know it.
Who is he? No one has seen him so how can we know?
Whats his role? I dunno.

Yeah everybody is same for me. And religion like Muslim, hindou, catholics, dnt exist for me. Anyway I will leave the rest to my Mum and of course you know... tongue

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Bhavna on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 15:22

i am a gr8 believer in Karma..i think zat if we do good action we will get good results. part of me also believe in God. iv seen a lot of miracles in my own house n im gonna tel it to u on msn bet not in here bekoz these things are not to b publicised unlike other people do. n then to believe in a supreme being, depends on ur faith n believes. if u dnt believe in it then thats fine too. i actually dnt really get what u wanna no. there is a lot of things that u need to xperience to understand. i am not a religious person bt more of a spiritual. i believe in meditation. people who said God existe are the sages, that is the enlightened ones. the ones who crossed all boundaries n has attained liberation. i do believe that every1 has a soul n that it is eternal. religion is a way of interpretations. it is just a guidline to a more fullfilling life. it give u good moral teachings n principles to live simple n not to b materialistic. as if u dig deep all religions got the same teaching, b good to other people, u shall reap as u sowed, or love ur friends bt love ur enemies double! as i told u i am proud to b hindu althought i dnt practice it as other people do, like i nt fast, or pray evryday or light the lamp bt i do it in my heart. God or whoever it is reside in my heart n i try to keep myself from doing wrongs so that He can stay there. mo pa dire ki mo n sainte bt at least i do give it a try! helping needy people is a form of religion as u r helping mankind..its just in the way u interpret things really, u cannot say one is wrong n the other 1 is right as u need to respect other people. if u read book against realigion then others read book for religion n i read none as i am more practical n i live as per my ideal..mother theresa being one. i havent answered any of ur questions bekoz i dont deem it necessary. i dnt wana make u believe in thing zat u dnt wana. u can never change n atheist as the more u try to xplein the more they harass u with questions!!!! Smile

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Smita on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 17:17

I fully agree that there is no such proof abt God.In this rapid developing world of ours we ppl from this new generation tend to believe on thgs based of facts.We can ask about the authenticity of hindu epics like Ramayan and Bhagad Gita.Is there any proof that wat is actually written in those holy books r really true?No1 has a concrete answer to this.People from earlier generation never dared to ask questions on God and religion.They had a blind belief.Now thgs r changing.People are becoming more and more rational.We can say ppl from the 21st century agree that 'facts talk'.I am talking so much that there is no proof bla bla then y do i still believe in God?Well,every individual has got different aspects of his personality and 1 may b being religious.Although I know there is no such proof I do believe in God because I've been influenced by the type of family I come from.N its all in the mind,if u want to belive in God or not.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by visham on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 18:12

eyyyyyyy zot p pren nissa la! lol. god? wtf? no offence but, plak poum dir "ayo bondier" pa amen narien. e ki lavantaz "pray" apart perdi 5min - 3 hours mo lavi asizer dan vide? kuma kiken in dir lao, li bliv dan keksoz apel karma, ki v dir bizin fr 1 zefor pu gagne resultat, bon ou moV

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Mon 7 Jan 2008 - 23:53

Deesha wrote:ceki envi krwar li krwar... ceki panvi kwar pa krwar... enfin mwa personally mo pa believe in god... surtou ki dan la religion hindu nu sipozer believe in 'naw grwa' (9 planets)... mai aster in decouvert n 10eme planet... eski pou ena n revision dan religion hindu? enfin pa kone... lol
Deesha's question speaks for itself. Should we turn to Hinduism 1.1 from 1.0?

Yes Bhavna, I am kind of a hard nut to crack and my questions will continue to harass till I don't get a relevant answer. You've talked about two things, the first being that you believe in a supreme one and the second being the way you pray and do things which you stated as karma.

So, the question which comes to my mind is what and why do you pray to your supreme one? What is the motive of doing a prayer and what is its aftermath?

I do not think the karma thing should have been stated here as it is one of the very basics of life. It is as simple as the saying goes: "You get what you sow."

Here are two simple examples of karma...

Man 1: Good morning John
Man 2: Hello Paul

Man 1: Hello asshole
Man 2: Shut up bastard

See, it is obvious if you choose a straight path your life will resume in being a simple and easy one. However, if you adopt the wrong path it is very likely that you are going to encounter problems.

Now Smita, you have given a very intriguing statement by saying that there isn't any authenticity of hindu epics and God but you do your prayers at 18:00 everyday. Is it a prayer acting or another thing? Please, do clarify.


Last edited by on Thu 10 Jan 2008 - 23:21; edited 2 times in total

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Bhavna on Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 6:10

being alone here, prayer gives me courage to hang on..to continue. it gives me smething to believe in. it is the tread that hold me strong when i get homesick and broken..wen i say prayer im not saying singing mantras here, im saying abt just thinking of God or just a light. i do prayers bekoz it makes me feel at peace, relaxed and gives me a sense of wellbeing. i wud say science cannot prove or explain a lot of things bt u still believe in it bkoz it is men who said it and they give u fact in front of ur eyes. bt it is still man who said it! bt how many mistakes do they do? hw many fake fact do they post in front of us? one will say something n the next day they come up with soemthing totally different. as i told u i am not religious n wont sit down n pray for hours, bt i still have faith zat there is some power if i cud say, everywhere around us. the same way some people believe in aliens!!! who have ever seen one..its just faith n u cannot do anything against people's faith. to finish i wud just say zat evrything that shine is not gold....

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by visham on Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 6:51

Bhavna wrote:being alone here, prayer gives me courage to hang on..to continue. it gives me smething to believe in. it is the tread that hold me strong when i get homesick and broken..wen i say prayer im not saying singing mantras here, im saying abt just thinking of God or just a light. i do prayers bekoz it makes me feel at peace, relaxed and gives me a sense of wellbeing. i wud say science cannot prove or explain a lot of things bt u still believe in it bkoz it is men who said it and they give u fact in front of ur eyes. bt it is still man who said it! bt how many mistakes do they do? hw many fake fact do they post in front of us? one will say something n the next day they come up with soemthing totally different. as i told u i am not religious n wont sit down n pray for hours, bt i still have faith zat there is some power if i cud say, everywhere around us. the same way some people believe in aliens!!! who have ever seen one..its just faith n u cannot do anything against people's faith. to finish i wud just say zat evrything that shine is not gold....

There's a fine line between belief and obsession. Believing in somethng is one thng, but insisting on the fact that the same thng exists while there's no tangible evidence is another. "GOD" is an entity created by the human brain to compensate for shortcomings in our own lives, it allows ppl to hope that everythng will b alrite, that better days are around the corner etc. HOWEVER, the fact is there is no such thng as god!

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 13:36

Visham is right, what he said is totally true, at least for me. See, those people who believe in the existence of God haven't yet been able to show any evidence and some don't even want to talk about it. Hence, we can surely conclude that God is a human mental creation just as Dawkins see this as a delusion, a mental insanity, and atheists are people without invisible means of support.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Sneha on Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 16:28

Group Phil1pact wrote:
From Hindouism to the Truth - Tuesday, October 26

In search of truth, the young Hindou Chellappa ill and full of debt decided to
commit suicide, but a voice from a microphone took his curiosity and hinders
him from doing so.

“God, I was born in sin,” sung young Chellappa. “My deeds are those of a
sinner. With my mouth I sin. With my eyes I sin. My stomach push me to
sin…Lord, I do not know how to free myself from sin. Come and free me from the
bondage of sin.”

Chellappa recited every morning his Hindou prayers. It was rooted in the
tradition of his family. His grandfather was a Gouru and his family belonged
to the order of Brahmin priesthood. This caste was the highest in India.
Food was scare, so young Chellappa worked at the temple in exchange for his
meals and education. He tried to follow all the rules of the temple, as
faithfully as he could, but often when he had a quiet moment to think, a
question troubled him “where will my soul go when I died?”

The death of his grandfather wobbled the boy who was then ten years old. Not
finding any comfort in the uncertainty with what the Gourous and the priests
explained concerning the final destination of the soul. Chellappa turned
toward knowledge for answers. He wanted some answers and began learning the
Sancrist so that he could read the holy writings.

“Swami, when I die, where is my soul going?” he asked one day in class. His
teacher counseled him to go read “Rig Veda, the most ancient of the Sanscrit
manuscript, which is considered to be the holiest of the Hindou books. Even
in the first chapter of Sanscrit, Chellappa found teachings that made him
perplex. The gods were natural forces, such as fire, air, rain and dew; very
different from Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva whom these Hindous’ mentors worshipped as
the highest gods.

“Teacher he asked, if Rig Veda is the holiest book why not worship Varuna
(rain) and Agni (fire) instead of Vishnu and Brahma?” His teacher ignored
him. They let him sought the answer himself. He read one day “All those who
worship the gods and their images will go into a sad place.” Chellappa’s
spirit was deeply troubled. If this is true, he thought, we must close the
temple. He sought in the Veda different (Rig, Yazu, Sama, and Athara Veda),
as well as in the Upanished (commentaries Agames (law) and Arinikas
(philosophies). One day, he discovered the God Prajapati, known also as the
God of the people.” Or Purusha “The Great Man.”

Chellappa read that the sacrifice of Prajapti took away the sin of the entire
human race. He didn’t know God, but scripture explained that when Prajapti
will visit the world in the form of Purusha, he will have ten distinct
characteristics: He will be a man without sin, separated from his family, his
own nation will reject him; they will place a crown of thorns on his head; he
will be tied to a tree who resemble a cross; blood will flow from his body; he
will die, but his bones will not be broken; he will be resurrected; he will
offer his flesh as son of God; and all form of humanity will be part of his
body. Chellappa didn’t know any god in the temple which fits that
description. After this moment the priests had enough of Chellappa’s
interrogation and excluded him (a the time 22) from coming into the temple.
Disappointed, Chellappa joined an Atheist sect; soon his life changed into a
bad direction. He began to gamble and his debts increased, finally he was
arrested--to make matters worse, he was diagnose tuberculosis positive. Since
Chellappa didn’t have money to take care of his health, death was a matter of
time.

One day as he was returning from work, he thought: “why wait for poverty and
sickness to come and take me?” He decided to jump off the train. He went to
the end of the train and stood at the stairs and looked outside. He was only
a step away from ending his life when he heard: “Whoever hides his faults will
not succeed; whoever acknowledges and confesses them finds God’s mercy.”

These words were strong and clear and they spoke to his heart. In his years
of studies, he never heard of something so strong. The curiosity triumphed
over him. Impatient to discover the advantage, he got off at the next station
and returned by foot to where he had heard the voice for the first time.
Chellappa couldn’t resist the idea that there was something greater than
coincidence who stopped from committing suicide. A great multitude gathered
at the stop where he first heard the voice; it was the Christians—a group of
people with whom the Brahmins had no liaison. Chellappa stood at a distance
under a tree and listened to the voice of the microphone. It was the same
voice that he heard from the train.

The man was telling the story of a God who created all, but did not stay as
God. He came as a man and lived a simply life. While he committed no
iniquities and helped many people, he was rejected by his own people. He was
arrested and brought in front of a court and the judges knew no pardon. God
was flogged, ridiculed, spit on, but he did not raise his head. A crown of
thorns was placed on his head and he was placed on a cross with nails in his
hands and feet. He died a painful death and was placed in a tomb. Chellappa
was fascinated by the story. The remembrance of God Prajapati came to him.
was it possible that Jesus-Christ was the answer? That he was
Prajapati..Perusha? When the speaker asked if someone wanted to receive
Jesus, Chellappa ran to the stand. “Me! Me!” He cried, completely panic. He
thought there was only one Jesus to give and that he didn’t come first he
would have missed him, but it was the truth that saved him. Chellappa had
found his Prajapati. He had found the power to be changed. He was slowly
cured from his tuberculosis, paid off his debts and found a good job.
Fourteen his after he started an evangelism ministry to the Hindous and the
Tamils. Today, millions have been touched by his teachings in which he shows
the association of Hindous Holy writings with truth of the bible. As always,
whenever he shares his faith, Sadu Chellappa wore proudly his Orange and
yellow color of his Brahmin caste.

Sneha
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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 19:52

This is ridiculous. You think God helped Chellappa? Where is the evidence? You have simply and may be unconsciously backed Dawkins. Moreover, you have talked about caste which only causes division and exclusion.

Years ago India was one of the poorest countries in the world. Today India is only second to China's economic growth and this is because they have implemented drastic changes in their way of life and beliefs by eliminating the barriers of religion and caste. However, only 10% of that population is participating in the economic boom. What if the remaining 90% play their parts?

India's economic boom is doing the country more good than harm and this is a fact, not a story like you posted, Sneha.

Last but not least, for those who don't want to even discuss about this topic...

Martin Luther King wrote:Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.


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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Chitra on Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 20:25

Lol, Way to go with the discussion, I'll revert to this when I get time...

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Shanu on Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 21:08

No comments on my behalf... Carry on guys, dat's a nice debate, that's all i can say.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Sneha on Tue 8 Jan 2008 - 21:13

If you are a theist... you already believe in the Existence of God! If you are an atheist... you look forward to clues which would scientifically or otherwise prove the Existence of God.

Both the theories are correct. It is only saying that the glass is half full and
the other half empty! Belief in the Existence of God stems from extreme faith in the system of God Almighty Creator. Being on the highest level of manifestation... human beings understand that nothing gets created on its own.

If we believe in the fact that the whole cosmos is the creation of God then we believe in the surmise that "God Does Exist". On the contrary atheists desire a proof of Existence of God. As per Jainism beliefs there is no Existence of God and they do not believe in the existence of a Creator. According to Jainism the Cosmos exists from times immemorial.

Believing in the Existence of God is like believing in the existence of a flower. Even though a flower may not be directly visible to us but we can feel its presence by the fragrance it emits... God also exists but we cannot see it due to the limitations of senses. God Almighty is beyond the capture of senses and the mind.

Why is it so that strong nonbelievers of God tend to believe in God the moment they face abnormal adversities in life. The sweet small voice which seems to come from within the body... the voice of our soul the atman within... is it not God in its miniscule form guiding us always and ever? Does it not confirm the Existence of God in its entirety?

Why do we at all require more proofs regarding Existence of God? The movement of the stars, the planets and the cosmic system as a whole... is it not governed by the invisible hands of God Almighty Creator of the cosmos.

Bhagavad Gita... the most sacred of all Scriptures existing on Mother Earth confirms the existence of the Almighty God. As narrated in Bhagavad Gita... God Almighty explains the reasons of exploding the self... the start of the journey of the various Souls Atmans... and creation of the cosmos itself.

If there was no God Almighty Creator... then the concept of big bang theory itself would have failed prematurely. No God... no big bang theory... no creation of the cosmos and there would never have been a solar system nor our Mother Earth and even us.

If we do not believe in the Existence of God it is for the reason that senses and the mind are unable to provide a logistical end to our arguments... we need to believe in the fact that God Almighty Creator is not the form of a human being... neither it has any other form whatsoever.

God Almighty Creator has to be a gaseous formation! Looked upon from the angle of senses and the mind we perceive the whole cosmos to be made up of solid matter and it is this surmise which does not allow us to peep beyond the limitations of senses and the mind.

If we are to believe in the Existence of God... we need to remember that the whole cosmos is made up of the basic building block of the nature... the atoms and the molecules. And beyond the clusters of the atoms and the molecules nothing else exists in whole Cosmos except Ether which accounts for the empty black space in the Cosmos.

Whatever be the form of God... it is definitely in form of energy and that
too pure energy. It is a different matter that during the time of the big bang... this cluster of pure energy we know as God (the combined power of all the purified souls Atmans in their pristine state is what we call God Almighty Creator) scatters all over the Cosmos.

All souls start their cosmic journey of 8.4 million manifestations and it is at the end of the cosmic life that the Soul Atman comes back to is pristine pure form. At the time of dissolution of cosmos all these purified souls combine together to form what we call God Almighty Creator.

We may not believe in the fact that God does not have power to create...
but not to believe in the Existence of God would be an anomaly. The whole creation of God is like a mighty computer which runs on a system of predefined parameters. As you perform so shall you get... nothing more or less! As we pray... accordingly be with the results of prayers!

Sinners cannot expect to be gain Punya Karma (positive balance of Karma) and those indulging in pious deeds do not seem to face the wrath of God most of the time. Everything in the cosmic system is balanced. We may or may not believe in the Existence of God... our journey of life continues unabated.

As we cannot see the smell of a flower but believe the fact after seeing the flower... we do not and cannot hope to see God with the limitations of senses and the mind. It is only when one reaches the stage of Nirvikalpa Samadhi can one come across face-to-face with God Almighty.


It is this stage of Nirvikalpa Samadhi which confirms the Existence of God. Every enlightened soul like Mahavira, Gautama Buddha, Jesus Christ, Prophet Mohammed never had any doubts about the Existence of God (it is a different matter that the moment they got enlightened they were able to perceive the truth in its entirety!

All anomalies fail to exist the moment one "Realizes" God... all doubts about the Existence of God come to an end the moment one becomes enlightened. One may or not believe in the Existence of God but the fact remains is that "the God Does Exist".

God does exist today, and the personal, moral and philosophical knowledge of many people adds further evidence to this. No one can ever prove that God exists by scientific methods. We should be thankful for that: what kind of 'God' would that be? No mystery, nothing hidden, everything reducible to a set of principles. God is far bigger than that...

Sneha
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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 2:17

One of the most common arguments for the existence of God is the argument from design. It states that the complexity and interdependencies of nature can only be explained, if someone intelligent (i.e. God) designed it all.

This kind of argument is what atheists call a "God of the gaps" argument. That is, God resides in the gaps of our current knowledge. When people couldn't explain lightning, it was God who made it and when that gap in our knowledge disappeared God had to retreat from it. This has been a continuing theme throughout history where God has retreated from one gap after another as the light of science has illuminated them one by one.

This argument also places God in the shrinking gaps of the very well supported theory of evolution which explains the development of the species without the need of an intelligent designer, your supreme one, God. One very common version of the argument from design is the claim that the odds of the eye being created by chance are so huge that the possibility can be discounted.

This argument however misunderstands what evolution is. Evolution isn't just randomness. It's randomness with selection and evolution doesn't create things like the eye in one go. It's nearly 150 years since Darwin explained in "The Origin of Species" how the eye might have evolved. It could for example have started with a single cell that were sensitive to light which generation after generation increased in numbers and complexity and it is important not to forget that all our skin cells are sensitive to light. When we feel the sun burning our skin it's simply an invisible light which we can just feel. Furthermore, we have today observed creatures in nature with eyes of different complexity.

Theists are bound to believe that everything has a cause and from this assumption it is argued that the universe must have had a cause and that this cause is God. However, if everything has a cause then God must also have a cause and that cause must have a cause and so on infinitely. This is a conclusion that I think isn't palatable for any theist. If the theist, to counter this, claims that God is uncaused then he has contradicted the assumption on which the argument is based and has therefore invalidated it.

It is also often argued that since so many people today and throughout history have had religious experiences there must be surely something about it. To answer this one should consider that earlier in human history more or less everyone experienced the Earth as being flat. Today science can explain why they saw it this way, even though it isn't true. Similarly scientists today are starting to explain why people have religious experiences and even trigger them without involving God. So, when someone is trying to make a case for the existence of God based on the many religious experiences they could make an equally compelling/uncompelling argument that the Earth is flat.

It should be considered that religious experiences are dependent on the religion of the person having the experience which indicates that it's only a subjective experience generated by the person's own brain. This aspect will also often make the experiences mutually contradictory which in turn shows that they can't all be true and even if we accept them then it will be very hard to argue why we shouldn't also accept the very similar experiences of alien abductions, succubus visits, etc...

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Ailine on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 12:28

Ben moi mo croir en bondier..mais ene lepok mo pas ti p croir.. c ki pa envi croir en c ki mo pou dir apres pa bizin croir mai c vrai.

1. ben lannee 05 mo pas ti coner mo mum ti malade..li ti ena ene tumeur  ek lan 04 kand ti ale en chine ki line cone sa..
moi mo pa ti coner ki li ti malade ni ki malade li ti ena  avant ki line dir moi ki li p ale fr operation  la fin 04   mo ti p dormi .. et dans mo reve mo ti p trouve moi p dormi  et puis mone  trouv la lumiere or ki petit a petit p vine pli fort/intense.. ek lerla mone trouve la deesse ki kand to priyer li,li aide toi gagn zenfant..et li protege toi.. li fine dir moi ki mo bizin prend mo mum soin coz li pou bien bizin moi akoz pou ene lannee difficile pou li ek li pou mari malade..mo pane gagne le temps pou poz li bann kestion mone lever lerla.

2. mone reve mo grandpere paternel meme si mo pa cone li ..
ti ena tou mo la fami ek mo grand parents maternelle tou ti la.. then mo grandpere paternel ine fr moi rentre dans 1 la salle noir..couma la porte ine fermer bann la lumiere ti p allimer ek mone trouv ene ranger bondier devant derriere ek a coT moi then mo grandpere ine dir moi vine o centre coz li pou montrer moi ene safr.... kand line fini montrer moi then mone lever.

now does soul exists ..yes..
1. en 2001  mo arriere grandmere maternelle ine mort.. kand mone ale en chine kot mo grandparents rester..premier nuit mone passe la ba mne reve mo arriere grandmere li ti p rode trouve moi 1 dernier fois avant li aller
thats what she said

2. eski kand zot fr reve kand zot lever zot senti zot d fois lourd et fatiguer ek d fois leger ?
 fatiguer ek lourde coum sa mem mo ti senti moi kand mone fini reve mo grandpere(2. la o) couma dir tone  ale fr ene longue simer pou aller retour  o lieu tone prend repos dans to sommeil  to pli fatiguer.

thats what i think..
now kand mone coumence prend sandal ek prier mo nepli gagne sa kantiter probleme la couma kand mo ti fek coumence college..

Ailine
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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Shanu on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 13:01

Wow... wat to say, well, euh.... i'm stunned!!
Moi g deja eu ce genre de reves mais mo pa ti kas tete, koz it's a dream aprer tou..
Mais la seki Ailine in dir, mone vremen shocker..

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Ailine on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 13:39

now mum alright Smile

Ailine
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Re: The God Delusion

Post by visham on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 15:39

bon ban zen, mo aret lir sa topic la mwa.. pna patience pu lir zot ban long long post en zizi la alor ki mo en plein vac Razz lol.. mai mo still stand by mo previous post Smile

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Ailine on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 16:02

ene jour mone rever

ti ena plein ombre dans 1 lakaz ..

lakaz la ti pou ene vier tonton ki ti p kit moi lekol avant

mo ti p rever ki ti ena bann ombres la

ek lerla bann la ine met difer

r lakaz la..

b vier tonton la ti p rester ek so ser la ba

ek so ser so ti zenfant kamarade ek moi

b dans mo reve..

mone rever ki mo ti p fr bann la sorti depi lakaz la

couma fini lerla mone lever..

apres mo pane prend sa reve la compte..

mais mone gagne sa reve la 2 fois

2eme fois la

mo ti zis rever ki mo ti p trouve lakaz la briller

kand mone lever

mo mama dir moi ena ene lakaz ine prend differ

kand noune ale guetter

lakaz sa tonton la em kine prend differ




mo coner ki li tombe plito coter reve premonitoire.. but someone told me to post it.. so...

Ailine
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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Prithvi on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 17:42

Varun!! As far as i understood is that god doesn't exist but it means that the famous history of india ,which is Ramayana, is fake!! Comeon i want u guys to give ur opinion on wat i said!!

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Ailine on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 19:24

dunno what to say cause i dont know the story..

Ailine
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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 19:47

Ailine, I never thought you would post this personal experience of yours as lots of people have been reluctant to do it. Nevertheless, I'm happy you did it for the sake of this debate.

Your foretelling dreams may seem as a very big question mark to my previous statements and most of the theists present here will feel like they got the final bit of their puzzle to counter the atheists but again, this is a very common phenomenon happening to lots of people including me since the beginning of time. I'm not a psychologist but I will try to explain this from what I have learnt so far and it is a pretty simple explanation...

Prophetic dreams, also referred to as precognitive or psychic dreams, are dreams that seemingly foretell the future. One rational theory to explain this phenomenon is that our dreaming mind is able to piece together bits of information and observation that we normally overlook or that we do not seriously consider. In other words, our unconscious mind knows what is coming before we consciously piece together the same information.

Moving on to little Prithvi's question, Ramayana is an ancient Sanskrit epic written by the poet Valmiki. Ramayana narrates the story of Lord Rama and plays an important part in the lives of Hindus as being one of their most sacred books which include the Bhagavad Gita also but then, the same question arises again; are there any attributes backing the authencity of these epics, as Smita already underlined before?


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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Ailine on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 20:03

wai tone deja dir moi sa.. ek mo ti coner to ti pou re dir moi sa mais .. ena reve ki mo ena ki mo sur ki li pa premonitoire ..

lol.. si to dir sa v dir to pas cone moi bien bien mem.. XD
ena 1 kams dire moi ki mo ena touper XD

Ailine
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Re: The God Delusion

Post by visham on Wed 9 Jan 2008 - 20:09

Prithvi wrote:Varun!! As far as i understood is that god doesn't exist but it means that the famous history of india ,which is Ramayana, is fake!! Comeon i want u guys to give ur opinion on wat i said!!

Sorry b kaV, obliger repone sana la! Ramayana was written by a poet who might have been inspired by real events/facts. HOWEVER, in no way does it prove the existence of "GOD".

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Thu 10 Jan 2008 - 8:47

Evil or Very Mad Ramayana doesnot exist.
Its all a story.
Who has ever seen a monkey flying?
And how is it possible that a monkey can lift up a mountain without any rocks fallig from it? scratch

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by visham on Thu 10 Jan 2008 - 10:36

lol! wa xplik sa ban zuav la 1 coup afro

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Shanu on Thu 10 Jan 2008 - 12:37

aB Vishaan, 1 kou to dakor ar l'existence god et 1 kou non!! ki to rol a la fin?? pa toem ki ti dir soul exists, li form parti sa delusion laem sa monoir!! alors pense bien avant to ecrire lot kou.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Thu 10 Jan 2008 - 20:57

Mad Ouf,
ecout bien,

Pu mwa God do exists, BUT I dont believe things such as ramayana and other fairy tales...

No one saw God so how can they write Ramayana?

And one more things, in the sea where they built a path for Ram to pass, how can that be built since the sea is very very deep and it is also impossible for rocks to float.
I was stunned to see monkey building path for someone whom people called God.

God is only one and noone saw him.

Evil or Very Mad Shanu get it dig and bury into your head and try to understand.

I dnt really think that you read all. And this topic, you contribute to it and I will see whats your views cause for me, you are not really participating in the debate.
Dnt you have your own point of view?
You only comment what others said.

I have no intention to hurt your feelings but I am saying what I think.
Sorry if I have hurt your feelings. Embarassed

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Thu 10 Jan 2008 - 23:12

Vishaan, I never expected such a reaction from you and I do not think you have the right to lash out as such at Shanu. We have a debate here and I expect you to discuss it with relevant and sustainable evidences.

Let me refresh your mind in case you have forgotten your own statements...

Vishaan wrote:I do believe in God, but I dont pray in front of his fotos.
Why do we pray statues? they are lifeless? Y?
Who saw God? How can people say that God is like this he is like that? There is only one and noone saw him. We can pray in our heart.
You have never seen God yet you pray God in your heart. You said statues are lifeless but what about the God you pray? Any proof of it's life or existence?

Vishaan wrote:As we usually watch films on t.v. When a film starts it has to finish. Exactly When life started existing on Earth, it has to end also. So I do believe that one day the world will end also known as 'La Fin Du Monde.' This will happen when the sun will explode. I am a science student and I believe more in science than spiritual shits.
So, here we can conclude that you do not believe in spiritual stuffs but later this is what you said...

Vishaan wrote:Who said there is no soul?
I dont accept this. Souls are harmless, they cant be feel, heard, touched or anything. they are unconcious.

Of course there is no such thing as ghost and evil spirit.

But souls only changed bodies. They never die.

A famous law: Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.

As such the soul cannot take birth or die. It only change body when a body is useless. And when it doesnot have any body, it just roams around.

Who knows Prithvi you were a girl on your previous birth?
Now, you believe in spirituality (the soul) but still, you seem to express the opposite of your ideas by saying you don't believe in ghosts or evil spirits. Suppose the dead person was an evil one, what kind of soul do you think should have resided in him and what kind of soul should have left his body after death?

As Shanu, I am also very confused with what you have been saying since the beginning of this debate. So Vishaan, if you cannot come up with evidences to back your statements which are very contradictory in themselves then please, abstain yourself from saying...

Vishaan wrote:Come on Guys, I want you to interact on my questins above.

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Guest on Fri 11 Jan 2008 - 9:26

Suspect
Anyway you wont understand it.
And Sorry again Shanu!

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Shanu on Fri 11 Jan 2008 - 12:53

annnnnnnnn ok..

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Sneha on Fri 11 Jan 2008 - 13:18

aie aie...debat la p vinn perso mo truV la.. Akoz sa mem mo pa ti envi discuss my views here bekoz atheists always have a contradictory thinking. Pft!

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by visham on Fri 11 Jan 2008 - 13:42

SneH wrote:aie aie...debat la p vinn perso mo truV la.. Akoz sa mem mo pa ti envi discuss my views here bekoz atheists always have a contradictory thinking. Pft!

n theists always make assumptions Smile

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Re: The God Delusion

Post by Varun on Fri 11 Jan 2008 - 19:19

Vishaan wrote:Suspect
Anyway you wont understand it.
And Sorry again Shanu!
I think you are the only one who understood what you said. There weren't any concrete evidence to back your views and you seem to be confused with your own beliefs, Vishaan.

SneH wrote:aie aie...debat la p vinn perso mo truV la.. Akoz sa mem mo pa ti envi discuss my views here bekoz atheists always have a contradictory thinking. Pft!
I can't see anything personal going on here and Sneha, if you base yourself on fairy tales I do not think your statements will have any weight. They simply come up to the conclusion that God is non-existent and atheism...

Carl Sagan wrote:Atheism is more than just the knowledge that God does not exist and that religion is either a mistake or fraud. Atheism is an attitude, a frame of mind that looks at the world objectively, fearlessly, always trying to understand things as parts of nature.

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